YOP050: Joel Zaslofsky – The Value of Simple

By September 24, 2015Podcast Episode

Bio: Joel Zaslofsky is the curator and simplifier behind Value of Simple, the SimpleREV movement, and the Smart and Simple Matters podcast. In March 2012, two years after his personal renaissance shook him awake, he quit his cushy job to help people simplify, organize, and be money wise. When he’s not enjoying nature, making his wife smile, or playing with his two young sons, he’s living intentionally, being Paleo, and Experience Curating.


Zephan: Zephan Blaxberg here and I’m hanging out with Joel Zaslofsky, and Joel is the curator and simplifier behind Value of Simple, The SimpleREV Movement, and the Smart and Simple Matters podcast. In March of 2012, two years after his person renaissance shook him awake, he quit his cushy job to help people simplify, organize, and be moneywise. When he’s not enjoying nature, making his wife smile, or playing with his two young sons, he’s living intentionally being paleo and experience curating.

And, Joel, how are you doing today? Because this sounds like it’s about to be a really interesting show.

Joel: Well, it’s literally sunshine outside, and sometimes I throw in lollypops and rainbows. I don’t have any of those, but I would give it a two thumbs up kind of day, so far. What about you?

Zephan: Awesome—I’m doing—

Joel: Feeling vibrant, feeling jazzed here?

Zephan: I’m feeling alright. It was kind of rainy outside this morning and I had to take a friend of mine to the airport so I was kinda meh waking up, but I’m getting into it, things are starting to come alive, and the day is getting onwards. So I’m hoping it’ll clear up here in a little bit because I’ve gotta get out onto the water tonight, but we should be—

Joel: Yeah, for some serious rowing action.

Zephan: Yeah, man. So I want to know about what this “personal renaissance” was that shook you up and originally got you into living a more simple life and building the community that you have.

Joel: Yeah. Well, I’ll preface it by saying that I’m almost thirty-six years old. And for the first thirty years of my life, I was totally sleepwalking through it. Life was very comfortable, very good. I had a great middle class upbringing in St. Paul, Minnesota. My parents provided everything for me. I went to a great college met a wonderful woman, got a cushy corporate job after I left, and everything was just clicking along. And I realized, when I was thirty, when my wife, Melinda, told me that she was pregnant with our first son, Grant—after the euphoria of “Ah, sweet, I’m gonna be a papa!” wore off, I realized “Wait a second, I’m gonna be a father, and there’s a lot of things in my life that are no conducive to being a good father.”

So I had this realization—really the first moment in my whole life where I stopped, completely stopped, and I thought “Where do I need to go in order to be a good father? In order to be somebody who’s generous with his time? With my mental energy?” and I realized my current trajectory was not gonna take me where I wanted to be. I was addicted to video games, World of Warcraft in particular. I’d stay up tile three o’clock in the morning playing routinely. Go work that cushy corporate job that I had and be there for eleven hours, just kind of have things slowly sucked out of me. And then I wasn’t really physically or emotionally available when I got home, and I thought “You’re gonna be a horrible, horrible father!”

So that day, I decided I’d give up video games completely—I mentioned before we started here, I don’t do well in moderation. I’m very much into find a paradigm, find a mindset, do it, and rock it, and don’t worry about the alternatives that are out there.

So this personal renaissance—which my wife, Melinda, she gave me that title a few months into it after she told me she was pregnant—I started experimenting with paleo and minimalism and a whole bunch of other things. And she asked me one day “You’re just…a TOTALLY different guy. What is this, some kind of personal renaissance?” and I told her, I said “Yes! Yes, that is it exactly!” I am now Version 2.0. Before, I never aspired to be anything other than what I was, but once that safe bubble was popped around me and I looked outside and thought “Hey, there’s pretty cool people that are doing some pretty cool and unconventional things, maybe I should start exploring a little bit,” life got really nifty.

Zephan: Yeah, and I’ve kind of experienced some things over time too. Obviously I don’t have a child yet and I don’t have your height—you told me before we jumped on the call you were six-six. I’m six-two, but—and I’ve hit my head on some things before, but, man, I would have a lot of trouble with that.

So I experienced paleo at one point in time where I was super strict on it for about…I’d say somewhere around two years, and I was watching every single thing that I ate. I found a huge difference in my energy and just in my lifestyle and it kind of—it’s one of those things, I’m sure you’ve seen this too, where it’s not just like you’re eating different food, but you’re feeling better, you’ve got more energy, you’re probably a little more in tuned with your fitness level and what you’re doing with your body. Have you found that that’s kind of played out into other aspects of your life?

Joel: Well, the weird thing about going paleo was it wasn’t just the food aspect, the diet aspect of it. I did it from a holistic perspective, from a lifestyle perspective in terms of how much time I spent outside, how much sunlight I got, what kind of activity that I got. Not just walking with my dogs but doing bodyweight exercises. And more people shift a paradigm because something’s wrong. What I was doing before with my food, in general, was working for me, and I didn’t necessarily feel better when I started the paleo lifestyle. I just knew from a scientific perspective that it made a lot more sense.

And from a longevity perspective, it made a lot more sense for me to start doing more of being outside and less of eating crappy food that—I’m six foot six, I’ve got a lot of frame to spread food over, for example, but from inside, I can’t really tell what’s going on. And since I don’t know, I want to do long-term what’s best for my body because I want to be on this Earth for a long time. I want to be productive, I want to be contributing and generous.

So that perspective of what’s going to be best for me long-term and what’s going to allow me to be the most generous, most grateful, most contribution oriented dude that I can be, that started with paleo and has since extended way beyond that. It’s just a general life mindset.

Zephan: And I just realized, for the people listening in, could you maybe give just a quick description of what a paleo diet looks like, just in case there’s anyone here who actually either hasn’t heard of it or doesn’t really know much about it?

Joel: Yeah. Well, I would refer people to marksdailyapple.com, which is my—although, there’s two different versions. Just like anything that gets big with vegetarians, there’s ten different versions of it. With paleo, there’s primal and then there’s this thing and there’s that thing. In general, paleo, from a diet perspective, is emphasis on meat—whether that’s white meat, red meat—seafood, nuts, eggs, and vegetables, fruit. Those are some of the core categories. And if it’s not listed—legumes, grains, and dairy—for the most part, people who do this paleo thing, they don’t eat those things.

Me, I’m not paleo orthodox…I like dairy. I live in Minnesota and I went to school in Wisconsin, so the dairy thing, cheese and milk and yogurt, can’t quite cut that out. And I’m not convinced, based on what I’ve read and heard, that those things are detrimental to me personally. Maybe generally they might not be conducive to a healthy lifestyle—I’m not ready to declare that either.

So it’s all about nuance. You figure out, “In general, this paradigm works for me.” there’s a set of boundaries. I feel constricted in a good way—that’s why I like minimalism, too, it’s very much a set of boundaries that I can push against to some extent, but I’ve kind of locked myself into a certain way of thinking and being and doing and interacting with people, and I love that. There’s a sense of liberation in that restriction. You ever experienced that with—you know, you put some kind of constraints on yourself, whether it’s creative or whether it’s the kind of food you eat, and then you think “This is awesome! Why didn’t I limit myself before?”

Zephan: Yeah, so it gives you a freedom, in a sense, and at the same time, it gives you a guideline so that you don’t wander too far off that path, which is what I really like about that. And so, I mean, this is something we have in rowing. It’s like, you’re in the boat, you could go anywhere in the water that you want to, but we have different patterns in the water that we’ll take. For example, one that we do quite often is called the North Shore Pattern, and it’s just hugging the north shore of the basin that we go out in. and you can go anywhere else and have a solid row, but this had been one of those ones that has been determined to be “ideal” as far as not getting your boat stuck in a very shallow area, not hitting submerged trees or branches and things like that.

So it’s something that really applies to all aspects of life. It’s not saying that you need to constrict yourself because you’re doing things wrong, it’s just saying “Here’s an ideal path. You can follow it as closely or as far away from it as you want, but it’s totally up to you.” And that’s what I like about it.

Joel: Yeah, there’s infinite number of routes you can take on the water, or on land, or when you’re on the internet. The problem with life these days is it seems limitless. The amount of media that you can consume, the food that’s available to you, the relationships—you and I, we can connect with any of the 7.2 billion people living on this planet. It’s awesome! But at the same time, it can be overwhelming, so how do you place a certain filter in which you view life or the kind of intentional way in which you go about life?

And that’s what I’ve been challenging myself and others to do for the past five years. Is how do you put that—how do you have that filter in your head? Whether it’s the kind of person you associate with, the kind of food that you eat, the kind of work that you do that’s meaningful that gives you purpose and is also value to other folks. That’s really, I think, the challenge of our day, is—at least four people like you and I—sadly, there are still billions of people in this world for don’t live our reality, who don’t have the limitless possibilities that we do.

But for the folks that do, it is an enormous challenge and I need something to constrict me to the point where I’m not just chasing after squirrels and I’m not just allowing my diverse interests and passions and skills to constantly wander off and be like “Ohh, maybe I should learn how to do graphic design after a few years because I’m not very good at it and I always need,” but maybe other people can help me out with that. That’s why I have friends, that’s why there are other people in the world who are amazing at it.

Zephan: Yeah. So it begs the question, though, where do we restrict ourselves too much? Because I was kind of raised under this mentality that might have no ever opened me up to even thinking about entrepreneurship. I was raised to think, you know, you go to school you get good grades in college, you get your first job out of college, you start working your way up the ladder, you end up with that nice corporate job and you start a 401k, and you get a family and—I’m not saying that’s a terrible thing to do. For many people, they want to have that. They enjoy knowing “At nine o’clock, I show up to the office, and at 5PM, my work is done.”

For a lot of people, it isn’t as nice as it sounds. It really isn’t that. Sometimes it’s show up to work at 9AM and don’t leave until nine or ten o’clock at night. There’s other issues to deal with at work. So where’s that boundary? How do we set that line for restricting our lifestyle? And if that line’s been set, how do we break out of that to realize that there’s so much more out there?

Joel: I guess it’s contextual to each person. I can’t give general guidance like “Hey, do this and everything’s gonna be awesome!” It depends on your personality, it depends on your resources, it depends on who you have in your life, whether you have kids, whether you have a family, whether you love to travel, whether you’re a home body—there’s so many different variables that go into it. Which is why—we were talking a little bit before we started recording about simplicity and simplifying. This framework of simple living.

So where’s the—where’s the comfortableness of restriction without fearing that you’re missing out? And that fear of missing out is powerful. And I can see it on social media, I can see it in a lot of the relationships that I deal with on a day to day basis. I feel it sometimes too! Especially when it comes to people. I just love hanging out with people. I’m heavily extroverted. So from a relationship perspective, I need to restrict myself—for example. We’re right here. I’m at home, I’m in my home office, I’m working today. You and I are having a lovely conversation right now, but I can’t do this again and again and again and again because then I’ll never get any of my work done.

So from an energy perspective, from a relationship perspective, I have to very intentionally restrict how much time I spend interacting with people, otherwise zero will happen, because I’ll just be chatting it up with everybody all day long. So whether you’re an entrepreneur or whether you work in some kind of company environment or whether it’s not even related to work, maybe it’s just the neighbor down the street who just wants to chat your head off all the time. That’s me, by the way, I’m that guy on the street.

You just have to choose “How do I want to show up in the world? Do I want to consume conversation? Media? Do I want to create? Do I want to create podcast episodes? Do I want to create courses and products, build communities?” So it’s really figuring out why. What’s the lens in which you’re viewing the world and what kind of contribution you’re trying to make, and then structuring your lifestyle around that.

Zephan: Yeah. And so I wonder, with taking on this lifestyle of simplicity, because some people are thinking “Oh, does this guy just have an empty room and a mattress on the floor?” When I think simplicity, I almost think of certain parts of an IKEA catalogue of just “Here’s a simple table and it’s in an open room, and that’s the only thing in the room.”

Joel: That—for some people, it is. I love asking people this question: What does simple living mean to you? And for some people, it’s living in a tiny house in a rural environment with really nothing around. For other folks, it’s just having the lightness of not being tied down by possessions and being able to freely travel the world. For other folks, it’s out in their back yard gardening with their little kids and cultivating, literally cultivating, the land together and growing something and watching their kids grow though all the healthy food that they live.

So this simplicity or simple living physically takes on a lot of different forms. And then we’re not even talking about mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, intellectually what that landscape looks like. But you’re right, I think a lot of people’s conception of simple is also sparse. It doesn’t necessarily have to be.

When I think of simple, I think of vibrant. I think of nature, I think of things that are constantly growing and evolving. And that’s kind of my version of simplicity. What about you, Zephan? What does simple living mean to YOU?

Zephan: [cut in] I love this episode so far, and I want to take a brief moment to talk about improving yourself each day. I know you’re a huge fan of living life on your own terms, but if there’s one thing I’ve learned in my journey, we need to constantly grow and look to others who have been in our shoes.  Which is why I’ve partnered up with Audible to give you one free download of your choice from over a hundred and eighty thousand books. Start your free thirty day trial by visiting yearofpurpose.com/audible. Now back to the show.

Zephan: So I don’t even know if I’ve shared this with many people, at least on the podcast. So I will turn twenty-six in a few weeks here. I moves out of my parents’ home just short of three years ago, and when I moved out, I moved into a townhouse with a couple friends. And so simplicity, to me, especially in that nature, was partially frugality. Not buying things that we didn’t need. So it’s very easy to go in and want to get a bunch of leather reclining couches and a big screen TV and all this stuff. And so our big goal, at least going in and putting this house together, was like “What do we need? Where can we get it from where we’re kind of recycling old stuff instead of just buying a bunch of stuff?”

And so, actually, we had a lot of stuff donated from friends and people we connect with. Our kitchen table was from like my aunt’s basement. Our couches were from a friend who goes to our gym. We actually wound up very lucky, getting—so at first, we had a big tube TV that somebody just donated to us, and it weighed like two hundred pounds. And then a friend of mine, who now because my roommate, he works for an AV company, and every now and then they get these giant, fifty inch plasms TVs that they take out of people’s houses when they upgrade their TVs. And so he called me one day and was like “Hey, if you get here in the next fifteen minutes, I’ve got two fifty inch TVs for you.”

So it’s not necessarily the materialistic thing, it’s more of people are out there buying stuff. Instead of getting rid of so much more trash, right now—and it’s not even trash, there’s a lot of treasure in it—so we’ve gotten our TVs, we’ve gotten our couches, we’ve gotten our table and all these things from other places and people who don’t need them anymore.

So, for me, simplicity is kind of like what are the bare minimums that you need. Like we haven’t even put curtains up in our house. We have blinds on the windows in our bedrooms, but if you want into our kitchen, it’s not something out of Home & Garden magazine or anything like that. You’re not gonna see curtains and valances and flowery things everywhere. Like, I’ve got three or four photos that I took and printed them out on photo paper on Kinko’s and glued them to like a two dollar canvas thing and stuck them up on the wall for decoration.

So, for me, it’s kind of—it challenges what a lot of people think of simplicity as because a lot of them thing that means you just don’t have a lot of stuff. From my standpoint, though, it’s been a lot of like “How can we use stuff that’s already out there without being very materialistic and buying all this stuff we don’t need?”

Joel: That’s great. That’s the premise of the share economy or collaborative consumption. We have plenty in this world. We have plenty of electronics, we have plenty of food, we have plenty of gold. It’s a distribution issue. How do we get it to the people who need it? And that’s why this wonderful century we like in, the 21st Century, and all the technology that’s available to connect people and to show people “I have this resource. I don’t need it anymore but I know somebody in my community does. How do I get it into the hands of the person who needs it, whether I’m selling it or whether I’m just happily gifting it.”

And that’s one of the reasons why I’m so encouraged about the direction of, at least, our culture is that people are more collaborative. Not only are we distributing resources in a better way, but also you’re meeting cool people and you’re building a sense of community with every kind of transaction. It’s not just financial and personal, there’s a social aspect to it too. Cultivating the roots of people to come together and build something together while you’re distributing back and forth.

Zephan: It actually reminds me of—and I don’t know if you’ve heard of this, but have you seen the Craigslist Joe movie? Was like an independent film?

Joel: No.

Zephan: So—this is pretty neat because this is like a test of both simplicity and how can you be really crafty at the same time. So this guy—I’m pretty sure it’s Craigslist Joe. And Joe is this guy from New York, has a nice corporate job, and wants to test the waters with life and just learn more about himself. And so he sets off on this journey to see if he can make it from New York all the way to the West Coast and back off of Craigslist with nothing but—I think he had like a laptop, no phone—so he gave his phone up and bought a burner phone so he couldn’t put any of his friends into it. And he—without one, without food, without everything, he just had a laptop and a phone for internet connection, and he wanted to use Craigslist.

So everything from like getting a ride form New York, and I think he went out towards like Ohio or something and started working his way across. And everything from the random ride to places to stay for the night to fun events and activities to do while he’s in town that are totally free, to “I am in town for the night only. I don’t have lunch and I have no money on me, can you help me out?” And he made his way all the way to California. He paid a videographer to kind of follow his journey, ultimately when he gets out there, he writes to Craig, the original creator of Craigslist, and is like “Hey, I just want you to know that I used your entire site to get out here.” And then of course Craig writes back and says “Well, I’ve got to meet you.”

So they meet up with Craig and I think they even hitch a ride there from Craigslist just to get to Craig’s house.

But it was a very cool documentary. I think there’s a little ad for it on the side of Craigslist if you’re ever trying to check it out. But that, to me, is like a story of how do you make the most out of nothing? He really—other than the security of a laptop and an internet connection, he left without anything.

Joel: Yeah. And it’s do you believe that people are fundamentally good or fundamentally selfish or trying to take advantage of you? Joe thought that people were good. He trusted folks to give him shelter, to help him give food, to provide him with the things that he really needed. But that was the cool thing about it. As he was going from New York to California, he focused on his needs. I’m sure there are a lot of things that he really wanted that he had some urges as he was traveling, but he didn’t get to take advantage of them because he was focused on the needs part of life.

And that’s a big thing with me to, is what is it that I need?  And I’m constantly questioning Do I really need that relationship? Do I really need that kind of sugar that I’ll binge on every once in a while? And a lot of times, the answer is no. and then the questions becomes “Okay, so how do I remove the excess from my life so that I focus on the things that are most important?” I don’t have a lot of the answers sometimes, but just continuing to ask myself that question “How do I remove the excess so I can focus on what’s important?” I guess Craigslist Joe did that to some extent too, and that’s a really cool story. I’ll have to look into that one.

Zephan: Yeah, definitely worth listening to. So, along with this simple lifestyle that you’ve created for yourself, it sounds like you’re working on building up a community of other people who want to do this too. I’m curious how it’s impacted your family and just how people like your wife have taken this. Do they fully 100% get behind you? Do you ever get any pushback as to like, you know, “Maybe I want a nice new leather couch!” or anything like that?

Joel: Yeah—I mean, my needs are minimal, but my family’s needs aren’t. So, because I don’t know the right way, because I’m not claiming to be the guy who needs to dictate how our family lives because Joel thinks a certain way. I’m not that guy at all. My wife, actually, she’s not a minimalist, she doesn’t do paleo, there’s a lot of things in which we fundamentally—it’s not like we disagree on them, but we’ve agreed that we’re gonna have different kinds of lifestyles. She works at Best Buy’s headquarters just a mile away from where I am right here. I’m a solo entrepreneur working out of my house. The way that she eats is pretty typical for Americans. I eat paleo. So there’s a lot of lines—from a capability perspective, we’re amazingly compatible from so many different angles, but it’s having the self-awareness to think just because you live a certain way doesn’t mean that everyone else needs to.

I’ve got two young boys—Clark, who is almost two, and Grant, who’s almost five—and my guys have certain needs that are different than what me as an adult have. I can kick them out of the house and be like “Guys, go play outside,” but, especially with my two year old, I need to be there for him. I can’t just focus so much on my work where I’m just like “Hey, two year old, go hang out outside and come back in a couple of hours.” That doesn’t really work so well, especially in the suburb that I live in.

All this to say that the way that I live is very different than the way that my family as a whole lives. Sometimes that’s difficult for me, when I see there are a lot of toys around the house and I think “Maybe we shouldn’t have so many.” Or I see how many books we get at a library and I think “Let’s just focus on one or two for the next week and intensely appreciate the one book and get to know it and cut the rest of them.”

As you can more people to your life, things get more complicated. But really, that’s the only thing that I cannot get enough of in life, is people and wonderful relationships. So I will never resent good friends who challenge me or who do things differently than me. I’m just trying to help change some of the underlying structures and systems that promote a lot of complexity in life because I want the default sustainable choice to be the easy one.

It used to be—for most of our human existence, it use to be, but it isn’t anymore. So I’m not looking for a revival of ancient times, I’m looking to figure out how can we live a simple life in the modern era.

Zephan: And I really respect that, because it’s not coming from a preachy standpoint of “You should live your life this way” Because you should live your life that way you want to and here’s a really great perspective that could potentially work for you.

So I’ve kind of always taken that route of—it’s interesting because I was raised in the Jewish faith and my father’s orthodox and my mom’s the complete opposite side of the spectrum. So we got presents on Hanukkah, and that was about it for me—at least on her side. So I kind of wound up in the middle at a certain point, “I’m gonna do the things that will make me happy.” I didn’t stick to any strict guidelines on that one, but I kind of tried to go back to the roots of ultimately what is it that religion gives to us? It’s guidelines so that we can live a happy and meaningful life.

So I’ve kind of stuck to that and I really like that you’re not coming about it from a standpoint of “This is absolutely what you must do,” because everyone’s gonna be different and you’re absolutely righ.t every situation—you really can’t dictate what’s gonna happen there.

I’ve got to bring up, real quick, because these were cool to me in getting back to my roots, barefoot running. So I was never really that great of a runner, but I was a huge fan of it back when I was in college, because I discovered the five finger shoes—

Joel: Ah, the Vibrams!

Zephan: Yeah. I had a pair of Vibrams for—I still have them—they’re like seven or eight years old now because those things last forever, and I’ve run tough mudders in these things, I’ve run 5Ks in these and I have to say that I really love running barefoot and feeling the ground underneath my feet. Surprisingly made running enjoyable for me. I don’t know if you’ve ever tried that before.

Joel: I’m tempted to just go bolt and be like “Hey, Zephan, I’ll be right back! Give me fifteen seconds, I’m gonna go get my Vibrams and hold them up to you!” I got my first pair five years ago, I think it was. And although I normal only run if someone’s chasing me, I do love to be outside in them. Just feeling the earth on your feet. And as a matter of fact, sometimes the Vibrams are almost too much. When I’m outside or when I’m in the backyard or when I’m just walking around the neighborhood, I’ll go barefoot in the summertime when it’s not cold here.

So although I’ve never done a tough mudder and probably never will—that’s awesome that you have—I don’t run, I don’t do marathons or anything like that, but I do have the same spirit behind it, which is removing the things that separate me from my environment, from a feeling of being immerse in nature. And minimalist footwear, or even better going barefoot, does that. You’re literally toughing the ground and feeling that tactile feel—how many times do you get that?

For the folks who are watching, for the folks who are listening right now, if they think “How many times in the last month have my feet had the opportunity to touch the ground?” That’s something that’s very primal, that has a very grounding and connecting feeling to us to our environment, and I try to have that as much as possible.

Zephan: Yeah, and I don’t mean like the carpet in your house. I will—I stay barefoot most of the day, especially when I’m home, sometimes in the office. And if I walk out and get the mail and go across the street, I’ll still go barefoot and some people are probably thinking “Doesn’t it hurt if you step on a stick?” Eh, it used to, but you get used to it. And having that feedback, actually, I think gives you more attention to what’s going on around you.

And so, how do most people sprain their ankles? They tripped on something because they weren’t paying attention where they were walking. Now it’s almost like an unconscious thing of I’m still paying attention to what’s around me, but I’ve gotten a little bit more feedback as to how do I feel the ground below me. And I actually—the funny thing is, the one time—I’d be wearing my Vibrams all summer. The one time I put my shoes back on, my tennis shoes was to–play ultimate Frisbee and that was the one time that I tore a ligament in my ankle. So funny story about that. I think there’s something to be checked out there for everybody listening. If you haven’t tried it before, definitely worth a shot.

We’re coming close to the end of the interview here, but I’d love to share with everyone listening in, what is the best way to keep track of things going on with you? I know you’ve got some really great blog posts on your website and things like that. So let’s share with everyone how they can follow what’s going on with you.

Joel: These days, I’m much more of an audio guy than I am of a writer. I wrote a book, I did blog posts on Value Simple for four years, I’ve stopped doing that. Where you can find me, in the real world, if you will—I live in the Minneapolis, St. Paul area, and so if anyone is in the upper-Midwest of the United States, just find me. Or I’m happy to come a little ways and connect with you. Like I said at the start, I always enjoy the opportunity to connect with cool people.

As far as digitally, valueofsimple.com is my internet home right now. And it leads to my podcast, Smart and Simple Matters. But that’s in a state of flux, in terms of moving it to a different place. If folks love this intersection of simplifying and community, kind of like I do, there’s something I’ve been involved in called SimpleREV, which has been going on for a couple of years. And the main part that I’m pouring my personal energy into is almost like Live Your Legend or Toast Masters or some other kind of international groups, we—the folks behind SimpleREV—are trying to bring people together in their local communities and build community around the principles of simple living.

So if that sounds cool to folks, then go to simplerev.com/local and see what it takes to be a host, to be a community builder and an organizer and bringing people together and simplifying together. that’s—it’s just this cool feedback loop of building community leads to a simpler life because you can share and you have more resources available to you, and then it’s just this really cool circle. So any time that I can be a part of that, I do, and that’s the thing that I’m most passionate about and I would love it if some other folks would join and want to get their fingerprints on what we’re building with SimpleREV.

Zephan: Very cool. Well, thank you for sharing that, and I will definitely be checking that out as well. And it’s been great speaking with you today, Joel, and I’m sure we’ll talk to you again soon!